Disputatio:Anjalankoski

One more time.

• This wiki follows Vicipaedia in not using J for Latin words in titles [1]. Vicipaedia has 'Anjalankoski' as a title because it is using it as a Finnish word, not a Latin one.
• J is only to be used in the same contexts as ă and ō, i.e. when we are showing the length of vowels.
• What you just did (deleting a valid entry and replacing it with a word under an invalid page title) will get you blocked if you attempt it again. —Mucius Tever 22:09, 31 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

I am very sorry. I wasn't delibarately trying to annoy you or be a rule breaking castaway. I know very well these rules and it is the Finnish word I am using. If you see the Disputatio page of "Lingua Finnica" on Vicipaedia you will see that Finnish latinists often use "j" and "k" rather than latinising. (Hence Jukka Ammondt doesn't have Iuca Ammondt). I don't think that people will search for "Anialankoski" when they want to find this city and the reason that I am making these pages about Finnish cities is partly to aid the "Lingua Finnica" discussion and partly to compliment the pages. I don't want to mislead anyody. --Harrissimo 10:34, 1 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

I see Jejunium around the recent changes too...

Anjalankoski as it stands currently is the entry for the Finnish word, and links to the normalized Latin form in the definition.

Disputatio:Lingua Finnica doesn't say a word about using J and K rather than Latinizing—the closest I see is a bit about how they occasionally use Finnish names rather than Latin ones (whence Jukka Armondt might not use Ioannes Armondt, though it should be Ioannes Armondt until we see him Latinize it differently).

The thing about the dictionary, just like the encyclopedia, is that it is good to have things backed up by sources. For everyday words that show up in all the other dictionaries this is less important, but for "new" words or things it looks like people are inventing, it's better not to have them. Now, I'm not deletionist about this kind of thing (which is why I let Anialankoski stand) but I think that if someone comes to a dictionary for reference, they should know whether we have a source for something or if we're just making it up (even if it follows regular or established rules for producing or Latinizing words), because it can be misleading. The example I use about Vicipaedia is, if a paper encyclopedia told me the capital of Silverland is Fresh Breezes, and I know nobody ever used those names for those places, I would throw it out on the spot—and a similar statement can be made about a dictionary (which is part of why Categoria:Novicia is so full of place-names).

jejunium seems to have been built as a redirect to ieiunium. I'm not sure that's a good idea, but that's a different kind of issue; but at least in that case, it doesn't seem like 'jejunium' is a word in another language. —Mucius Tever 13:39, 1 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

I created the redirect in case someone would search that word. (Due to macrons, the search feature propably doesn't find the article called ieiunium with key-word jejunium, though the word jējūnium appears there. EDIT: Actually, I was wrong. Jejunium finds ieiunium because of the title in template caput. 08:21, 2 Septembris 2007) If it isn't commonplace to create those redirects here, you may freely delete jejunium. --PeeKoo 16:17, 1 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

It's subject to dispute, however, whether Anjalankoski is a Latin word in the first place. It looks more like a Finnish word that is inflected in Latin due to practical reasons. Maybe the "Declinatio"-chapter in this Finnish article should include the Latin inflection as a piece of extra information, and the page called Anialankoski shouldn't exist at all. --PeeKoo 16:17, 1 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Well, it can definitely be latin (see Tyrjae torrens in Kalevala). Once upon a time I would have latinised it as Anialankoski - I even went as far as Anialancoscia but that gets us nowhere. I think that the table of declension should be moved from Vicipaedia to here in a Latinizatio section, alongside the sources which are currently at vicipaedia. Finnish latinists - and I guess all latinists who import words - have licenses to use these letters (Helsinkium, Kentukia, Tyrjae torrens etc.) and so saying "Anialankoski must be latin because we've changed the "j" to "i" is futile. This "j" is not in a context like the jejunium redirect; it is an imported word - but not one which we can change. --Harrissimo 00:03, 15 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

"Not one which we can change" from what? No source outside of the Wikimedia project has been cited for a Latin original of this word—which certainly may well differ from the conventions so far seen—which is the reason it has been marked as a fabrication. The dictionary is not to invent words, but to catalogue those already existing. As for which language a word is in its context, there is a guideline at dictiones includendae though I think now that it is somewhat arbitrary (and I can't find the source I thought I had for the idea). —Mucius Tever 15:29, 15 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

I'm not trying to say that this is a latin word and has ever been used in a latin context. It is unlikely that it will be, after all, it's just a small town in Finland. All I'm trying to say is that I want to show people somewhere (preferabely containing latin declension tables) how to decline these words. The sources of Finno-Latin declension - mostly from the Kalevala - are at Lingua Finnica in the Notae section. Using a "j" in this context is not a fabrication (Tyrjae torrens as I said above) and if I am to write about places of small populations like Anjalankoski, there aren't going to be Latin forms which I can just pick up from the internet. I have just e-mailed Pitkaranta. We shall see what he says. --Harrissimo 16:23, 16 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

What I am trying to indicate is that a language is not a monolithic whole, it is a collection of words. While there may be regular or widespread rules on how to treat Finnish words as if they were Latin ones—and I know there are, I put the first ones on that Wikipedia page—that doesn't automatically make them valid headwords, any more than the existence of regular rules on forming diminutives of any Latin word means that we can write entries for every single diminutive, because not all of them exist as Latin words. Again, the dictionary is a catalog of words that already exist, not (if we can help it) a place where new forms are to be fabricated, even if they are formed by regular rules; at least, that is the case if it is to remain NPOV. Now, creating a well-sourced page in the Auxilium: namespace and linking it from Auxilium:Lingua Finnica might be a decent way to communicate the information you seem to be trying to communicate. —Mucius Tever 00:26, 17 Septembris 2007 (UTC)